tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post112320412985290246..comments2024-03-18T22:21:33.261-07:00Comments on The Debate Link: How Did I Become a Christian All of the Sudden?David Schraubhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123374378322777432005-08-06T17:26:00.000-07:002005-08-06T17:26:00.000-07:00I very much appreciate this post - very, very, ver...I very much appreciate this post - very, very, very much.<BR/><BR/>As an observant Jew on the traditional side of the Conservative Jewish Movement (United Synagogues), I not only agree, I want to point something out, too.<BR/><BR/>Among the (1) Humanist, (2) Reform, and (3) Reconstructionist Jewish movements, gay/lesbian/trans folks are openly accepted. These folks can marry and enter clergy.<BR/><BR/>The Conservative movement (where I affiliate) is a bit of a mish-mosh on that point . . . but speaking for my own synagogue in Western New York? Well - we're strictly Kosher, have a male Rabbi and a male Cantor . . . . And *VERY* openly gay and lesbian members of the congregation.<BR/><BR/>And the congregation itself?<BR/><BR/>A great way to alienate yourself is to come in and confess to being a Republican.<BR/><BR/>This "Juedo-Christian" garbage has to stop. Over my time in both the Midwest and the North East, not only have a reached the same conclusion as your fantastic post . . . I have also noticed something else.<BR/><BR/>The "Juedo-Christian" label is a label used to punish someone more often than not.<BR/><BR/>If one just uses the "Juedo" label, one can still even to the Modern Orthodox synagogue in my community where the Rabbi still accepts all people with gentle humanity . . . if not perhaps with the same standing in the community as the other movements noted above offer . . . and that is really saying a great deal.<BR/><BR/>I have yet to see that kind of acceptance out of any Fundamentalist Christian.<BR/><BR/>Ever.<BR/><BR/>Period.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for standing up for us Jewish Folks, babolah!<BR/><BR/>'BeanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123336690120982802005-08-06T06:58:00.000-07:002005-08-06T06:58:00.000-07:00I was pointed here by The Moderate Voice and while...I was pointed here by The Moderate Voice and while I have nothing intelligent to add, I did want to say that I found both the original post and the comments of the highest quality. Far too often, a thread with more than 3 comments turns into a flame war over even the tiniest disagreement. This discussion of an already interesting idea was civil and added a lot to the original post. Thank you all for that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123287869568481932005-08-05T17:24:00.000-07:002005-08-05T17:24:00.000-07:00Russell: That is a very good article you point me ...Russell: That is a very good article you point me to. The thing is, I'd consider the position taken in the article to be "moderately pro-choice" (though I agree with the author that the position doesn't neatly fall within the black/white paradigm we've set up for the abortion issue).<BR/><BR/>Basically, what I gather from the Halakahic rules on abortion is that a fetus life has value, but aborting it isn't "murder". It isn't a good thing, per se, but it isn't murder. Removing the action from one of murdering a child allows for a range of other factors to come into play--factors which must be balanced against the interest of the fetus. This prohibits abortions-of-convienance, so to speak, but I don't think that's a large portion of abortions. It would allow abortion for "compelling reasons", which are debatable--but once we're at the point where psychiatric issues are even being debated as legitimate/illegimate reasons to allow an abortion, I think we can safely say we're past the threshold of where the pro-life movement in America sits. Certainly, it shows a significant difference between the Jewish/Christian conceptions of abortion, which is all I'm arguing for anyway.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, I do not see any sort of moderating tendancy amongst those who say "Christian" values and those who say "Judeo-Christian"--at least in contemporary discourse. I suppose the latter might mean better, but they still use in support of positions rejected by a majority of Jews (see, e.g., <A HREF="http://dsadevil.blogspot.com/2005/04/crossing-line.html" REL="nofollow">The Judeo-Christian Council for Constitutional Restoration</A>), which means it bites the very harms I say it does--falsely incorporating Judaism into positions Jews find objectionable.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123286120705511162005-08-05T16:55:00.000-07:002005-08-05T16:55:00.000-07:00David,Again you make some very good points. I'm go...David,<BR/>Again you make some very good points. I'm going to have to think about whether the existence of scholars like Milgrom (Jewish), who in writing (shared and esteemed) commentary on a shared text (Leviticus), and who is seen by the Christians and Jewish community as an expert on Leviticus is sufficient to state that a term Judeo-Christian might have meaning. Furthermore, it would be my guess that Jacob Milgrom is not unique in his status as a O.T./Tanakh scholar who's work is seen as valued by both communities.<BR/><BR/>For, As you aptly point out, there are a lot of reasons why that term is at best misapplied and and worst leads people to make incorrect assumptions.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10837999838469082203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123260877364723692005-08-05T09:54:00.000-07:002005-08-05T09:54:00.000-07:00Mark: It's very similar to a past post (Prager bri...Mark: It's very similar to a <A HREF="http://dsadevil.blogspot.com/2005/05/word.html" REL="nofollow">past post</A> (Prager brings out the worst in me), the difference being that the prior post was dedicated to specific differences between Jewish and Christian theology, while this one was more on the pragmatic negative implications of the combination.<BR/><BR/>Christian theology grew out of 1st century Judaism, but split off relatively rapidly (by the 2nd century, I believe, there was a Christian conference that explictly severed the link between Judaism and Christianity as different sects of the "same" religion; now, Christianity was seen as the evolution of Judaism, which was supposed to die off (Judaism 2.0!)).<BR/><BR/>Islam also was heavily influenced by 6th-7th century Judaism. As the former became hegemonically dominant from central asia across north Africa into Spain, much of Jewish intellectual life continued under Muslim rule. Maimonides, for example, was heavily influenced by Muslim philosophers he befriended in North Africa, and composed many of his works in Arabic. The "golden age" of Jewish life in Spain was when it was under Muslim rule--one of the first acts of Ferdinand and Isabel after the 1492 reunification was the expulsion of Jews from the country. The rapid detoriaration of Judeo-Islamic relations, such that today it is just assumed "it is conflict thousands of years old," is one of the great tragedies of the modern era.<BR/><BR/>Of course, when dealing with shared texts, it is always possible to find shared meanings. I would not go so far as to say there is NOTHING in which Jews and Christians have in common. However, since the main text of Christianity (The N. Test.) isn't accepted by Jews, and the main exegesis of the Tanakh (Talmud/Mishnah/Responsa etc) isn't accepted by Christian (and for that matter, since even in the shared text their are serious doctrinal and translation disputes), the majority of the traditions pass each other by. To be more precise, there might be individual "Judeo-Christian principles" one could find, but the overall traditions do not meld all that easily into a nice, coherent, "Judeo-Christian" tradition as they are portrayed. This is even more true given the "splintered worldviews" that exist in both Jewish and Christian life--one probably can pick and choose threads from all the pieces and say "look! Everyone agrees!", but it seems kind of ridiculous to assert that project isn't a construction.<BR/><BR/>Basically, the term "Judeo-Christian" holds implies a particular status between Jews and Christians that is very dangerous. If someone said "both Jews and Christians" believe X, I'd be far happier than "the Judeo-Christian tradition asserts X." The former implies that two separate religions have found common ground (based on past history?), the latter implies that one tradition is speaking with a unified voice, and that any disputes that are out there are essentially intramural.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123249274183476142005-08-05T06:41:00.000-07:002005-08-05T06:41:00.000-07:00David,This is almost a recycled post isn't it? Act...David,<BR/>This is almost a recycled post isn't it? Actually, I found it more convincing this time. This time 'round, I'm willing to concede that much of the popular usage of the term Judeo-Christian abuses the term. Not exactly like isaac, would imply, for there are some very non-arbitrary reasons for using the term. After all, unlike with Islam, Christianity did have its origins in 1st century Israel. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand the excerpted Prager fragment is more striking for its (in my understanding) bad Scriptural exegesis than anything else. Actually, however this brings to mind an good example of where Judeo-Christian tradition might be usefully used. For your Mr Prager quote brings to mind Leviticus. A highly respected (in the Christian community and I might guess Jewish) commentary on Leviticus was written by Jacob Milgrom. The very fact that Mr Milgrom is regarded as an expert commentator by both Jewish and Christian theologian <I>in the field of theology</I> means the term Judeo-Christian is not devoid of good sensible meaning, that is to say it <I>isn't</I> just a "blatantly a constructed category". Like "Christo-Islamic" might be. I might challenge you to name a work valued by Islamic <I>and</I> Jewish (or Christian) theologians jointly. I'm certainly no expert in theology ... and evidence that I can name one, probably means there are lots more.<BR/><BR/>That isn't to say the term isn't abused. But in the theological community especially, it does make sense in a lot of contexts. <BR/><BR/>Also, I think you should be careful about your statement that Jews and Christians have different worldviews. I think there are more than two worldviews in play here. 1st century Jews had more than one worldview back then. I'm willing to bet there is more not less diversity in that community ... setting aside for the moment the splintered worlview Christians are heir to especially since the Reformation and Enlightenment.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10837999838469082203noreply@blogger.com