tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post1815775062928462993..comments2024-03-18T22:21:33.261-07:00Comments on The Debate Link: On the "Jewish State" DemandDavid Schraubhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-29591027576688518552010-10-13T17:04:54.954-07:002010-10-13T17:04:54.954-07:00PG,
If I might respond to you as earnestly as I c...PG,<br /><br />If I might respond to you as earnestly as I can, were the matter a dispute where only the views of average people were involved, the dispute would have settled long ago, likely in 1947. It has, as I understand the history, been elite opinion makers who have been adamant in opposing the grant of any legitimacy to sovereignty for the Jewish people. <br /><br />What the Israelis are looking for, I think, is the acceptance of their legitimacy by Palestinian Arab elites, who are, historically speaking, least likely to be interested in resolving the dispute. On this, see Ephraim Karsh's fascinating new book, <i>Palestine Betrayed</i>, in which he closely tracks, during the period of Israel's creation, the views of average Palestinian Arabs and elites among them. The average person was far more interested in going along and getting along than the elites. And, it was the elites who drove the dispute, spurning compromise.<br /><br />I think that what the Israelis demand makes particular sense when dealing with a non-liberal, non-democratic society where consensus and shame play an inordinate role in forging and controlling public opinion. The role of elites is, I think, far greater in such a society than in a liberal democratic polity.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-24676440046760489552010-10-13T13:49:55.054-07:002010-10-13T13:49:55.054-07:00With regard to bargaining chips, do people really ...With regard to bargaining chips, do people really believe that the PA/Hamas has total control over how other Arabs or Muslims or anyone else views Israel's legitimacy? If not, what's the point of counting the views of others' on Israel's legitimacy as a chip?PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-70187511435626139502010-10-13T11:41:35.052-07:002010-10-13T11:41:35.052-07:00Well there's really no non-argumentative way t...Well there's really no non-argumentative way to respond to that, so I won't.joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-55699443244013558182010-10-13T06:46:25.219-07:002010-10-13T06:46:25.219-07:00joe,
Ignore what I wrote after the word "Com...joe,<br /><br />Ignore what I wrote after the word "Compare," which was something I considered writing but changed my mind on - evidently without deleting the words. Sorry.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-6559252165921517532010-10-13T06:34:24.221-07:002010-10-13T06:34:24.221-07:00joe,
I am writing in earnest in response to your ...joe,<br /><br />I am writing in earnest in response to your post.<br /><br />Let's talk about game theory and bargaining chips. You are certainly correct that recognition of Israel as the state of the Jewish people is a large bargaining chip. However, it is certainly no larger than Israel ceding, in principle, its claim to hold land in the captured West Bank, which is, in effect, what the Palestinian Arabs seek as a pre-condition to talk.<br /><br />As a practical matter, the Palestinian side could make its acceptance of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people conditional on Israel ceding sufficient territory for a viable Palestinian state. That would, I assume, be sufficient to Israel, showing that the Palestinians are negotiating in earnest.<br /><br />As a matter of game strategy, that concession would neither commit the Palestinian Arabs to anything tangible - while Israel would restrict its rights to build, conditionally on a settlement - nor require the Palestinian Arabs to commit to anything which they would not, in the end, have to commit to anyway, assuming they mean to settle, not merely seek a hudna - as I believe they seek.<br /><br />So, the question here is, if we are going to play President Obama's game, that the sides each give up on important points in public, at the outset, why not get something of symbolic importance out of the way first. That, after all, is exactly what Sadat did, when he went to Jerusalem to speak at the Knesset.<br /><br />I do not think it is quite true - if this is what you are suggesting - that the Palestinian side has only a few bargaining chips. One can count them, but the chips that have been played thus far include, the use of terror, the campaign of the entire Arab world and greater Muslim world to delegitimize Israel, the potential for war, etc., etc. Which is to say, Palestinian Arabs have more bargaining chips than is typical for a group which is out of power because the Palestinian Arabs are part of a much larger group, which funds them, which supplies them with armaments, which legitimizes their political stance and which has influence over the West - as seen by the strong support by the EU states for the Palestinian Arab cause. <br /><br />Compare<br /><br />And, on top of that, PA officials have said for years that there are no circumstances where Israel will be recognized, in a final agreement or otherwise, as the homeland of the Jewish people.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-57647937352042966432010-10-12T22:25:00.643-07:002010-10-12T22:25:00.643-07:00Let us not talk normatively now.
Meaning the only...Let us not talk normatively now.<br /><br />Meaning the only new thing I have to say is about pretty basic game theory. Not gonna get into the rest of it.<br /><br />If we accept that recognition is actually really important and not a red herring, that would mean it's a pretty hefty bargaining chip for the PA, which has limited resources and (at the risk of understatement) not much going for it militarily. Recognition would be one thing it has absolute control over, so even if the the concerns Ibish notes (that it's a backdoor repudiation of right of return and the status of Jeruslam, so it's giving up on major goals before talks even start) can be alleviated by tweaking the language, I don't see how it could possibly be given pre-final agreement, not without a major quid pro quo.joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-73320368266135475162010-10-12T15:12:35.006-07:002010-10-12T15:12:35.006-07:00I think it's appalling, and the fact that it i...I think it's appalling, and the fact that it is only imposed on non-Jewish immigrants is nakedly discriminatory. There's really not much more to say about it. When you let Yisrael Beitanu set policies, bad things happen.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-18006697229620667372010-10-12T14:33:27.501-07:002010-10-12T14:33:27.501-07:00David, what do you think of the loyalty oath to be...David, what do you think of the <a href="http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/10/12/2741255/oath-stirs-storm-in-israel-silence-among-us-jews" rel="nofollow">loyalty oath</a> to be required for non-Jewish immigrants to Israel, in which one must swear allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state"? I was surprising that you didn't mention it in these posts on Netanyahu's demand for recognition by the PA of Israel as a Jewish state.PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09381347581328622706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-65658139579571174782010-10-12T14:03:42.295-07:002010-10-12T14:03:42.295-07:00This is among your most coherent posts yet. Consid...This is among your most coherent posts yet. Consider, next, the implication if, as is quite likely the case, the Palestinian Arabs never intend to accept the Jewish National movement as legitimate. What, then, are the implication of negotiating if the only future is a truce? That, as your current post suggests, is not an unrealistic possibility. <br /><br />In fact, it is a likely one. One needs to consider your remarks in light of the stellar book, <i>One State, Two States</i>, by Benny Morris, where he makes a rather persuasive argument, with substantial evidence, that the Palestinian side will not accept Jewish nationalism as having any legitimacy and that any settlement will be of temporary duration. This, both for political and religious reasons.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.com