tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post5375912831244456860..comments2024-03-18T22:21:33.261-07:00Comments on The Debate Link: The Real Problem the Right Has With J Street (It's Exactly What You Think)David Schraubhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-87463495016472574062018-03-10T04:03:50.455-08:002018-03-10T04:03:50.455-08:00J-Street is JVP lite, having platformed JVP speake...J-Street is JVP lite, having platformed JVP speakers & antisemites like Rebecca Vilkomerson to speak at their events. They supported the Goldstone report & its primary, yet totally false allegation Israel targeted civilians intentionally. J Street argues calling for Israel's destruction isn't always antisemitic (come on). They supported the Iran deal when the vast majority of Israel's LEFT opposed it. They've done NOTHING I'm aware of for American Progressive Jews shunned & abused by the Intersectional movement. Their most recent articles about Ahed Tamimi & her family COMPLETELY whitewash Ahed & her family's clear support for terror. J-Street is nowhere to be found right now WRT Tamika Mallory, Linda Sarsour, Farrakhan and Dems they've endorsed who still support Farrakhan. <br /><br />CbYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506228002466085702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-47594160929322773042016-12-25T18:21:01.265-08:002016-12-25T18:21:01.265-08:00I can't imagine what "too far right"...I can't imagine what "too far right" is in this context (given the post under discussion). Clearly, he's not interested in "unifying" Zionists if he'll put out this dreck bashing J Street but kills anti-Trump, anti-Bannon, pro-2S pieces. The fact that he'll publish liberal pieces that say exactly what conservatives would like liberals to say does not falsify my read, it confirms it. Put simply, he'll publish pieces by liberals that make conservatives happy, and pieces by conservatives that savagely attack liberals. That is a right-wing site.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-20590702839516400232016-12-25T01:59:39.420-08:002016-12-25T01:59:39.420-08:00"I don't think I've ever seen a "..."I don't think I've ever seen a "liberal" article"<br /><br />Not even the one I wrote that you shared on your blog (Progressive Case for Israel)? Either way, I will admit to not being a regular IC reader. Aside from what I've contributed on my own, I only read the occasional pieces from Justin Amler and Ryan Bellerose (whose indigenous rights-based articles are fundamental to my own work on Jewish liberation, although he is definitely further to the right than I am, and I have clashed with him on numerous occasions), or whatever else comes up in my feed. Beyond that, all I know is what Dave himself tells me, which is that he tries to unify Zionists on both ends of the spectrum without veering too far left (hence why he censored some of my articles and flatly rejected my anti-Trump, anti-Bannon, and pro-two state pieces) or too far right. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297210042002570130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-31531706134866717272016-12-21T22:32:01.824-08:002016-12-21T22:32:01.824-08:00I follow them on Twitter, and I don't think I&...I follow them on Twitter, and I don't think I've ever seen a "liberal" article. Which isn't to say there aren't any, just that the skew seems definitively towards the "rah rah" (or "nyah nyah") right, with "neutral" demarcating its leftwing border. I've seen no evidence that <a href="http://www.israellycool.com/2016/12/21/israel-trying-to-find-ways-to-bring-in-injured-civilians-from-syria/" rel="nofollow">Vox is "fairly characterized as anti-Israel"</a>, for example, and such an assertion seems like the sort of thing one would only hear from those for whom anybody to the left of Likud is by definition "anti-Israel."David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-20443894218594630762016-12-19T00:11:10.248-08:002016-12-19T00:11:10.248-08:00I mean, other examples aside from the article you ...I mean, other examples aside from the article you criticized here (as I mostly agree with your rebuttal).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297210042002570130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-77219429835013068942016-12-19T00:08:45.229-08:002016-12-19T00:08:45.229-08:00"The content I've seen there seems to hav..."The content I've seen there seems to have a definitive right-wing tone and slant. Just my read."<br /><br />Can you specify? <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297210042002570130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-12150175060158725202016-12-19T00:01:58.677-08:002016-12-19T00:01:58.677-08:00As someone who writes for Israellycool (although n...As someone who writes for Israellycool (although not so much anymore; I'm looking for other, less restrictive outlets), I'm disappointed that you referred to it as a "right wing blog". Not everybody who writes there is right wing (I am a two stater who is politically aligned with Hatnuah), and Dave generally tries to keep IC articles in the center without veering too far to the right, or (in my case) too far to the left (he's edited/censored a lot of my content for this reason). What is it about IC that you find right wing?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297210042002570130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-45649079299423318412016-12-19T00:00:08.906-08:002016-12-19T00:00:08.906-08:00The content I've seen there seems to have a de...The content I've seen there seems to have a definitive right-wing tone and slant. Just my read.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-66100956436358888522016-12-18T23:48:34.587-08:002016-12-18T23:48:34.587-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297210042002570130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-31619917737619944712016-12-18T23:43:05.640-08:002016-12-18T23:43:05.640-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18297210042002570130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-59611319414232378842016-12-18T12:00:02.524-08:002016-12-18T12:00:02.524-08:00I am curious how you square this: "Thanks for...I am curious how you square this: "Thanks for pointing out the times J street did laud Israel. I had never seen these before." <br /><br />With this: "However I am aware that they are few and far in between."<br /><br />The admission in the first should cause reassessment of the reliability of your instincts in the second. After all, if you weren't aware of them in the first place, how could you confidently be aware of their frequency? Six instances in the last four months (there were others too, these were just a selection) isn't <i>that</i> few or far between (especially given that these last few months were, shall we say, a busy time here in America). And more broadly, in the first you admit that a key building block of your anti-J Street case was built upon a (relatively serious) misconception about how they operate. It seems like the virtuous thing to do, at this point, would be to reserve judgment about them going forward at least until you're able to more thoroughly update your priors. The idea that Jeremy Ben Ami thinks that Israel should not exist, for example, strikes me as entirely unsustainable and precisely the sort of misapprehension that should cause you to think twice about whether your outlook is adequately grounded.<br /><br />Does J Street provide ammunition to groups like Mondoweiss or JVP? Perhaps, though such groups get far less ammo from J Street than they do from Arutz Sheva or anytime Bezalel Smotrich talks. Anyone who thinks that anti-Zionists need to rely on liberal American Jewish organizations for R&D isn't taking the former seriously enough.<br /><br />In general, groups like Mondoweiss et al view J Street and its ilk much the same way the Jewish right does -- as internal traitors (to the left) who sell out their putative principles and compatriots for power, influence, or tribal or provincial interests (indeed, I've often remarked that JVP and ZOA have a lot in common except for the part where they hate each other). They are not, to put it mildly, friends. To illustrate, here's a selection of recent Mondoweiss headlines on J Street (too many hyperlinks make my spam filter cranky, but they're googlable):<br /><br />"J Street is in denial of one-state 'consensus'"<br /><br />"J Street joins gathering of leading pro-settlement funder"<br /><br />"J Street has nothing to say on 'the current situation'"<br /><br />"J Street names Jewish victims of latest violence, but leaves out Palestinians'"<br /><br />"'J Street' leader promotes Israeli 'change' coalition that could include politician who called for beheading Arabs"<br /><br />"J Street's progressive illusion."<br /><br />Clearly, best buddies.<br /><br />The points about Western hubris (and, particularly, the Mizrahi issue) are important and valid -- people in tough neighborhoods make tough choices, and high-handed lectures from the outside aren't always as useful as they think (though I'd suggest that this applies with equal weight in how we talk about Palestinian choices....). If you read my blog you'll see I engage with those issues at length (see, e.g., the <a href="http://dsadevil.blogspot.com/search/label/Mizrahi%20Jews" rel="nofollow">Mizrahi Jew</a> tag). And one of the reason I haven't joined J Street is that I think parts of their tactical approach are misguided. But tactical errors are not the same thing as being a sellout, or a Kapo, or "only serv[ing] as a Jewish voice to lend credibility to the demonization, delegitimization, and double standards the world foists upon us." Such rhetoric is wildly overwrought and is predicated off presuppositions about the organization that you now are well on notice are incorrect.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-66036673344458160662016-12-18T07:17:58.258-08:002016-12-18T07:17:58.258-08:00*pariah position
Pardon my typos I'm typing ...*pariah position <br /><br />Pardon my typos I'm typing on a stubborn phone with a nasty autocorrect that autocorrects properly-spelled words.Alexandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419809156328337058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-5466146621979642552016-12-18T07:15:49.109-08:002016-12-18T07:15:49.109-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alexandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419809156328337058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-39785303427220754432016-12-18T03:41:05.518-08:002016-12-18T03:41:05.518-08:00Thanks for pointing out the times J street did lau...Thanks for pointing out the times J street did laud Israel. I had never seen these before. However I am aware that they are few and far in between. However most of J Street's criticisms are not only completely void of context, but actually give ammunition to the haters and credibility to sites like Mondoweiss. It is frankly irresponsible given Israel's parish position in the world which is an undeserved double standard. <br /><br />The fact is that they see Israel through a western lens, not taking into account the harsh and very different realities we have to deal with on the ground, not realizing that sometimes we make decisions we aren't happy about but that the alternative is much worse. <br /><br />It's the patronizing way these American democrats who are American first, Jewish second (or third or fourth or 54th...) think they can just tell us what to do because they know better than us. It positively reeks to me and Israelis across the spectrum of "white man's burden".<br /><br />I used to support J Street until I dated the son of a farhud survivor. He drilled that mizrachi wisdom into me really well - the cultural differences that make it hard for a westerners to understanding the conflict, his story being expelled from Iraq, etc. But when I was a j street supporter I remember basically thinking "you know, if Israel has to do so many horrible things to exist, maybe we are better off without it." Indeed, Jeremy Ben-Ami came to that exact conclusion. It is only natural when immersed in J Street logic long enough. It is my experience that J Street is a gateway drug to actually hating Israel - after all if Israel does all the horrible things J street says it does, what's there to love? <br /><br />Moreover, I never once said that I agree with the kappo analogy. I do not. I called it harsh and offensive. But I understand where he is coming from and have been under fire for making similar comments about Nazi-supporting BDSers Jewish Voice for Peace. The universalists who don't value their Judaism and whom I consider traitors. I don't think J Street is that bad, since although I think J Street has a terrible influence on the world, and bolsters the naive yet patronizing anti Israel attitudes we Israelis love to hate, I don't think they outwardly advocate for Israel's destruction. However they contribute nothing good to Israel and only serve as a Jewish voice to lend credibility to the demonization, delegitimization, and double standards the world foists upon us. Alexandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08419809156328337058noreply@blogger.com