tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post5863226732319767901..comments2024-03-18T22:21:33.261-07:00Comments on The Debate Link: The Tough Choice Between a Palestinian State or Fucking Over JewsDavid Schraubhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-82341413501319967622009-06-02T21:53:21.440-07:002009-06-02T21:53:21.440-07:00I don't know enough about Erekat and his own b...I don't know enough about Erekat and his own beliefs to make any definitive statements - but I wonder if the issue here is not an abstract one of not respecting Jews from a nationalistic perspective, but a religious belief (either a Muslim or a Christian) one that Jews/Judaism are inferior to Islam/Christianity. (I don't know if Erekat is Muslim or Christian so I don't know which would apply). Certainly classic Christian and Muslim theology regard Jews/Judaism as inferior and not worth respecting.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17626228106192215280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-70711637329028616292009-06-01T07:55:07.150-07:002009-06-01T07:55:07.150-07:00That second "interview" (which is actually an arti...That second "interview" (which is actually an article, by an outfit I've never even heard of called "Gaea news") doesn't clash with the first at all. At no point does Erekat say or imply "I'm willing to recognize that Jerusalem is a holy city to the Jews". It does clash with the subsidiary point that Diehl's article focused on (Erekat willing to simply wait until Israel gets weaker), but that's secondary to the thrust of this post. <br /><br />The refusal to recognize Jewish connection to Israel and Jerusalem is, as noted, a longstanding PA position, which gives credence that it may be operating here. JPost's corroboration through J Street and Meretz supporter Shlomo Ben-Ami adds substantially to the weight of the evidence.<br /><br />And contrary to your assertion, nothing in the post requires or implies that Israelis have always been saints and offering great deal after great deal only to be swatted aside. We need to take seriously Erekat's statement on why he rejected <I>this</I> deal. It's a <I>problem</I> if the PA has a redline over acknowledging Jewish experience, and it remains one even if it has other, reasonable redlines (Jerusalem as a capital, dismantle the settlements, land swaps for any annexed territory).<br /><br />This isn't a Jewish conversion project -- the presumption is we don't have to ask three times once the right offer is on the table. Justifying Erekat's rejection of a deal that seemingly gave everything he wanted solely on the ground that it treated Jewish claims with dignity, because <I>past</I> Israeli offers weren't as good or prior Israeli malfeasance, is not on the level (and indeed, is a recipe for nobody ever signing anything).<br /><br />If Erekat's own analysis of why he rejected the offer is accurate, it indicates that the deepest redline is respect for Jews, and that's scary. And it's something we're going to have to deal with at some point.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-8087008173243312602009-06-01T03:18:16.474-07:002009-06-01T03:18:16.474-07:00I think you're placing a lot of weight on an inter...I think you're placing a lot of weight on an interview that's only available <A HREF="http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD231309" REL="nofollow">in partial form</A>, and that translated by a biased group whose reliability has been <A HREF="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/may/15/arabicunderfire" REL="nofollow">questioned</A>.<br /><br />But let's assume -- for the sake of argument, not because we actually know -- that the translation is accurate, and does not omit anything relevant. <br /><br />Even in Memri's transation, the interviewer seemed skeptical of Erekat's truthfulness, pointing out that Erekat had once "proposed Palestinian sovereignty, with Israel playing a role in the administrative aspects" -- a position he now seems to deny ever having taken.<br /><br />Furthermore, if Erekat says one thing in an interview on Al-Jazeera, and another thing in a <A HREF="http://blog.taragana.com/n/abbas-submits-mideast-peace-proposal-to-obama-67752/" REL="nofollow">different interview</A>, why do you assume that everything he said on Al-Jazeera was the absolute truth?<br /><br />Maybe it is true that in every negotiation from Camp David onward, Israel has offered the Palestinians everything in absolute good faith, only to be slapped aside by the Palestinians absolute commitment to, as you put it, "fucking over Jews," even if it means giving up everything they want.<br /><br />On the other hand, it's also possible that negotiations have failed -- so far -- for reasons that don't make either side a perfect villain or a perfect saint, and that are <A HREF="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/14380" REL="nofollow">much more complicated and nuanced</A> than the simplistic cartoon you're describing in this post.<br /><br />Personally, I think what's going on is that both sides are beating their chests and saying <A HREF="http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSLL96214120090521" REL="nofollow">Jerusalem will never be divided</A>. I'm just hoping that, like American politicians, Israeli and Palestinian politicians don't always mean every word they say in public.Barry Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796981762797604817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-45534516010357031322009-05-31T13:38:26.321-07:002009-05-31T13:38:26.321-07:00I feel like this two state solution thing is just ...I feel like this two state solution thing is just a dance that we do because we don't want to face the horrible possibility that maybe it really is just Jew hatred plain and simple and that nothing the Jews do will appease it. Jews always "deserve it" we deserve it now because we are racist colonialist oppressors,we deserved it then because we were "ripping off" the Germans, we deserved it before that because we killed christ, we always "deserve it". So we hope that maybe we can make it right. Jews will give up tangible land for a beautiful nebulous promise of peace. For the hope that the Jew hating will cease. And if that doesn't work then maybe we'll give up more of the land, maybe all of it. And if that doesn't work maybe we'll just offer our throats and beg forgiveness. And if that doesn't work, well at least we tried. The only perfect Jew is a dead Jew. Living Jews always deserve it. So whatever, maybe if the Jews hand over the Temple Mount that will be enough. Since that IS Judaism's most holy site, if Jews can just hand it over then maybe the Jew haters won't need to kill our bodies. Since our spirits and souls will already be dead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com