tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post7913385907523846127..comments2024-03-18T22:21:33.261-07:00Comments on The Debate Link: Beinart's Settlement BoycottDavid Schraubhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-74067505947850933492012-03-21T09:36:53.454-07:002012-03-21T09:36:53.454-07:00Excuse me if I seemed to imply that you were the k...Excuse me if I seemed to imply that you were the kind of narcissist Goldberg is - I did intend anything nothing of the sort. I agree with you that, tactically, his proposal goes nowhere.<br /><br />But I think Goldberg's (I'm paraphrasing), oh i don't want to talk about your proposal except to mention in the same breath as the holocaust and the murder of French children - instead I'll just direct my readers to 'Commentary', was pretty indicative of the dickish way liberal jews throw liberal jews under the bus. It could have been worse - Goldberg cares about stature. If Beinert were a lowly film critic, for example, he would have blunted his teeth. <br /><br />As for my begging-the-question about the Israeli left - I'm not sure how that criticism applies. I guess I wonder how paying the Israeli left to get beaten up by settlers while cops (who are also settlers) watch furthers anything. That movement might have a modicum of success if Hamas were to hold off on launching missiles for a year or two, or thugs in the West Bank would refrain from cutting children's throats. Until then, any accomplishment by the Israeli left gets erased the moment the missiles fly or throats are cut. It's a Sisyphean task. I have a hard time asking others to do it when it's not something I'm willing to do - particularly not when such people have to put their bodies on the line first in the army and then (again) in action at the settlements all the while expecting to be treated as traitors and Uncle-Toms by large swaths of the public. I cannot reasonably encourage anyone else to live that sort of life. <br /><br />The obvious truth is that two-staters on both sides will be undermined by extremists. It really doesn't matter what the left does. It's the people who talk with guns or rockets that control the situation. <br /><br />As for AJC... Are you kidding? Did you read their z-word blog, or the no-longer-officially AJC-sanctioned spinoff, The Propagandist (whose essay-contest winner was a Wissian Uncle-Tom accusation directed at Ben Murane of NIF)? AJC would have to endure a wholesale cultural change to police rightward one-staters. It's precisely the kind of organization you rightly complain about. <br /><br />As for the ADL, I really don't have much of a sense for them anymore. I'm speculating, but my guess is that they build consensus among prominent establishment figures or groups in the Jewish Community before forming and announcing their views and commitments. If that's right, it's hardly the kind of organization one can expect to show leadership. And surely (this is not speculative) they haven't. My guess is that the influence of the ADL dissolves as the historical consensus within the American Jewish community similarly dissolves. This is sad. <br /><br />What I guess I'm saying is that at least Beinart is advocating something that has a chance to shake things up even if it has absolutely no chance of convincing anyone rationally. He doesn't deserve to get compared to Nazis. At the very least, the truth that such targeted boycotts have no chance of convincing anyone is hardly a criticism when the alternative proposal has no chance of convincing anyone.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06262011586811044441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-33761506863613132182012-03-21T07:32:40.313-07:002012-03-21T07:32:40.313-07:00I don't think my post was anything but respect...I don't think my post was anything but respectful towards Beinart, whom I greatly respect. And while Goldberg was more sharply critical than I was, he had some kind words for Beinart too, whom he has repeatedly noted makes important points about the future of American Jews vis-a-vis Israel. Indeed, I don't see Beinart being thrown under the bus by liberal Jews -- they've disagreed with him, but respectfully, and that's a-okay.<br /><br />As for my own proposals, I admit they're not the most aggressive in teh world, but you're begging the question on the first and strawmanning the second. On the first, the whole point is to arrest the demise of the Israeli left -- and I don't think there is no difference (either inherently or tactically) in an internally-led movement to stop settlement growth and an externally-imposed one, particularly in a democracy. It's not about "crimping our style", it's about recognizing who is best situated to bring about reform.<br /><br />On #2, it's notable that I didn't put the onus on J Street for this. I put it on the ADL and AJC -- middle-of-the-road groups who have stated commitments but aren't living up them. J Street versus ZOA is a statlemate (at best). The AJC versus ZOA is a battle ZOA loses.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-28694189193664467132012-03-21T06:12:03.067-07:002012-03-21T06:12:03.067-07:00So...
1. Try to bolster liberal Israelis who are ...So...<br /><br />1. Try to bolster liberal Israelis who are increasingly emigrating to the United States (or elsewhere, like Brazil) to do the job it would crimp our style too much to do ourselves...<br /><br />or<br /><br />2. Keep on going to J-street conferences, while those organizations we criticize continue to use Uncle-Tom slurs brazenly and without comment from pretty much anyone not at the conference. <br /><br />Indeed, it doesn't seem to matter whether one calls for targeted BDS or opposes BDS. Opponents of settlement expansion are named anti-semites without critical comment from anyone who matters who is not, themselves, a member or publicly in sympathy with J-street. Moreover, one has no idea what line one need cross before prominent people (e.g. Jeffrey Goldberg) who are broadly in sympathy with ending settlement expansion will throw you under the same bus in the goal of differentiating the good liberal Jews (Goldberg) from the bad (an ever-lengthening list that now includes Beinart). <br /><br />While I agree that Beinart's call for targeted BDS is probably pointless, I think your call for dialogue is arguably even more pointless. Beinart may be counterproductive in alienating the right. But this sort of thing is counterproductive in alienating the left. <br /><br />Basically, when everyone jumps on Beinart the "left" (broadly speaking) does the one-staters work for them and eats its own. Divide and conquer, baby.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06262011586811044441noreply@blogger.com