tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post112336184588849155..comments2024-03-18T22:21:33.261-07:00Comments on The Debate Link: Despite a Valient Effort to Portray it Otherwise, This is a Good PointDavid Schraubhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123386791798609602005-08-06T20:53:00.000-07:002005-08-06T20:53:00.000-07:00This is insane. I've heard many defenses of Christ...This is insane. I've heard many defenses of Christian atrocities--but saying that there was a "distinction between the State and the Religion" is definitely a first for me. I wonder what the folks living in the Holy Roman Empire, or the Papal States, or the ones where the King needed Papal blessing to reign, would say (not to mention our friends on the Christian Right who want to eradicate precisely that distinction here). Similarly, the claim that "The Koran is regarded as word for word the actual literal voice of God" makes it...exactly how many fundamentalist Christians (and Jews for that matter) view the Bible. I must be missing the distinction.<BR/><BR/>But moving on, it is self-evidently clear that there have been innumerable instances of Christians using Christian doctrine to justify atrocities. The Crusades? Colonization of the Americas? The Inquistion? This is easy money. The history of Christianity from about 1400 to 1750 (at least) was one giant historical precursor to "we had to kill the village in order to Save them." What we see is that when both Christianity and Islam gained any degree of power (an event which occurred earlier in the history of Islam), they both relatively immediately started doing awful things to non-believers.<BR/><BR/>Finally, even accepting arguendo that Islam is identical to what it was in the 7th century (a proposition I doubt heavily--if for no other reason than that Muhammed was a big supporter of Woman's Rights [look up who his wife was some time]), it's ahistorical. There is a giant historical period where Islam was more progressive and fluid than were their Christian counterparts. To say that reactionarism is inherent to the Muslim character is historically baseless--to be sure, we're in the throes of a prolonged conservative backlash by the Muslim world, but this is historically no different than the Middle Age period in Christianity (where yes, Christians were told flat out to kill Jews and Muslims).<BR/><BR/>This isn't trying to be a simple "Christians are EVIL" comment. We could trade horror stories all day if we wanted to--I could point out that for much of history, a Jew or Christian could expect a much more tolerant reception as a minority in the Muslim world than a Jew or Muslim could in the Christian world (certainly, a situation no longer true today). The point, which I made in the post, is that all religions have had their noble and shameful moments. Islam is in the throes of a very shameful time in its history. But claims of an inherent superiority/inferiority (which is what is essentially happening--the subtext behind those who want to portray Islam as inherently warlike is that we're "better" and "not like that", IE, we're the REAL religion of peace) dynamic can't survive under even the most cursory historical analysis.David Schraubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04946653376744012423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123378712766824562005-08-06T18:38:00.000-07:002005-08-06T18:38:00.000-07:00The difference is that between correlation and cau...The difference is that between correlation and cause. IRA members and McVeigh didn't go commit murders because they were Christian anymore than you or I go tie our shoes due to our religion. They may justify their actions using religion, but even the most hard-line Jewish, Christian, or Buddhist is simply using their religion to justify being hardline Jewish, Christian, or Buddhist extremists. Maybe it's because their religious books don't hold up well when you're screaming to kill someone, but it's a start at least. All religions may give rise to their own nutcases, but very few actually tell their nutcases to kill (most people taking existing political or nationalistic beliefs as their reasons to murder), as opposed to the nutcases coming up with the idea and then struggling real hard to justify it using a religious book.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, I bet you it wouldn't take ten minutes with google to find a moron holding up a Koran/Q'uran and saying that it specifically says to kill the infidels where they are.<BR/><BR/>Also, when's the last time you heard of Christianity being called the Religion of Peace?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7321349.post-1123371133581860692005-08-06T16:32:00.000-07:002005-08-06T16:32:00.000-07:00The problem with Islam is this:1. The Koran is reg...The problem with Islam is this:<BR/><BR/>1. The Koran is regarded as word for word that actual literal voice of God, and not subject to revision or certain aspects ignored.<BR/><BR/>2. Mohammed unlike Jesus and Budhha led armies, married multiple wives in polygamy, including child marriage, captured and slew hostages, taking their widows and daughters as sex slaves, executed prisoners and criminals, and led a total religous and political state all in one. In contrast in both Budhhism and Christianity there was always a distinction between the State and the Religion.<BR/><BR/>3. Islam is very resistant to change, owing to it's transcendant brotherhood which as Malcolm X experienced, is a profoundly powerful spiritual force. Unlike Christianity and Buddhism, neither of which bear much resemblance to what they were even two hundred years ago, Islam is pretty much the same as it was in Mohammed's day.<BR/><BR/>4. This extraordinary resistance to change puts Islam in a direct collision course with the Modern World. It is not a question of religions as much as the Past, as encompassed in Islam's total way of life from rules for the Bathroom to how to pray, colliding with Modernity's total open-ness to change and the notion of "progress."<BR/><BR/>Islam is not the province of "zealots," far from being an extremist bin Laden IS the authentic voice of Islam. He isn't any different from Islam's founders, or the consensus of Islamic thought. By contrast McVeigh, Rudolph, Koresh are thought to be lunatics and consensus Christian thought abhors them. Aum Shin Rykio, Kozinsky, and Heaven's Gate are not even Christian but cultists and lone lunatics. Similarly Kach is outlawed in Israel, and the Lubavitchers live in Brooklyn not Jerusalem.<BR/><BR/>Millions and perhaps billions of Muslims regard Osama as a hero, only a few handful of luantics view McVeigh, Rudolph, or Kach as anything but lunatics to be killed or jailed, whichever comes first.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com