Very scary stuff. And apparently the festival organizers, instead immediately calling the police when the thugs starting chanting anti-Semitic slurs and throwing rocks, tried to "de-escalate" the situation on their own. What the hell?
Your question may be mostly rhetorical, but note well the following: "The festival took place in Sahlkamp, an immigrant neighborhood in Hannover."
Emphasis mine. At least in the US, that's not the kind of community that has a high comfort level around police. Even when detention/deportation is not a concern, you're still talking about groups on the margins of society that may not feel they can rely on law enforcement.
The concern ought focus on the hatred that was expressed and demonstrated and not on how that hatred was quieted.
Joe,
The hatred expressed and shown is endemic in the noted immigrant community. It is that community which needs to be shown that its opinions are hateful and wrongheaded. Your approach suggests giving a pass to that community, which is basically how Europe has dealt with its immigrant communities and with no impact on abating the hatred endemic in those communities. See, While Europe Slept, by Bruce Bawer; The Last Days of Europe, by famed historian Walter Laqueur.
Both authors document Europe's inability to address issues related to immigrants and unwillingness even to face that there are hate mongering type problems that need to be addressed - for everyone's good including that of the immigrants. While one might reasonably disagree with either author's agenda and prescription, their facts are not reasonably in question.
Which is to say, your focus on the immigrant neighborhoods and their comfort level gets the issue backwards. Europe bends over backwards to the point of willful blindness to the hatred brewing among its immigrants.
N., note that I merely made a factual note -- with no prescription attached -- about immigrant communities in general (it's not even clear to me that the community in question is predominantly Muslim; the article offers some facts to support that inference but it's far from clear, and I did no original research). One that, frankly, is often lost on native/acclimated citizens.
As for Europe's immigration issues and the same handful of books you keep recommending us, I can only question how "asleep" countries that entertain bans on veils and minarets can fairly be called. But that's quite apart from the mere factual observation that yeah, certain communities feel less comfortable talking to police.
Your words: "Even when detention/deportation is not a concern, you're still talking about groups on the margins of society that may not feel they can rely on law enforcement."
As for recommending the same books, I miss your point since, in fact, I did not mention the noted books previously. And, even if I did, reading books is a way to learn things and not rely on specious analysis.
The issues overlooked in Europe include, for example, in previously homosexual friendly Amsterdam where Mr. Bawer reports that attacks on homosexuals are out of all control to the extent of making it a dangerous place to be homosexual. It means, as he notes, that information regarding such crime is suppressed. It means, not addressing a host of other issues that pertain to immigrants.
Rather than address actual problems that relate to the presence of immigrants, Europeans have instead, when they address these things at all, focused on stupid things such as clothing and undermining religious freedom. Which is to say, I stand by my assertions.
Making those arguments are all well and good but none of it invalidates my first post. Don't believe me? Survey some immigrants on their trust of police officers. Hell, survey some officers on how easy it is to investigate crime in immigrant neighborhoods.
The real issue here is that these same immigrants who distrust the police are also overtly Antisemitic and hateful. That, not their distrust or fear of the police is, in today's world climate, a more pressing matter. Don't you think that is the case?
If you want to poo-poo the problems of marginalization of immigrant communities and its intersection with crime, tell it to (for example) battered women who feel they have no recourse at all within the legal system because of their place of birth.
On the terms of the original post here, the "real issue" is a two-parter: 1) The violence itself, and 2) Disbelief over the actions of festival organizers. Anti-Semitism is plainly behind number 1. We all know that; it's stated outright. As for addressing number 2, then yeah, general crime-reporting troubles among immigrant populations enters the equation. And that's not stated outright, so it's worth mentioning. Am I saying it's right not to call the police? No. Just I assume you're not backing gay-bashing in Amsterdam just because you observe that it happens.
I think that one problem here is that your initial "factual note" had implications which you may not have intended. Be that as it may, it does not sound like we have any real disagreement.
What do you expect when everybody is bending over backwards to be politically correct with a vile culture attacking it like a cancer? Yielding to them means that more and more deserters of their Arab dictatorial countries, where their life is miserable, will come to our shores, disrespect their host cultures, etc.
Your question may be mostly rhetorical, but note well the following: "The festival took place in Sahlkamp, an immigrant neighborhood in Hannover."
ReplyDeleteEmphasis mine. At least in the US, that's not the kind of community that has a high comfort level around police. Even when detention/deportation is not a concern, you're still talking about groups on the margins of society that may not feel they can rely on law enforcement.
David,
ReplyDeleteThe concern ought focus on the hatred that was expressed and demonstrated and not on how that hatred was quieted.
Joe,
The hatred expressed and shown is endemic in the noted immigrant community. It is that community which needs to be shown that its opinions are hateful and wrongheaded. Your approach suggests giving a pass to that community, which is basically how Europe has dealt with its immigrant communities and with no impact on abating the hatred endemic in those communities. See, While Europe Slept, by Bruce Bawer; The Last Days of Europe, by famed historian Walter Laqueur.
Both authors document Europe's inability to address issues related to immigrants and unwillingness even to face that there are hate mongering type problems that need to be addressed - for everyone's good including that of the immigrants. While one might reasonably disagree with either author's agenda and prescription, their facts are not reasonably in question.
Which is to say, your focus on the immigrant neighborhoods and their comfort level gets the issue backwards. Europe bends over backwards to the point of willful blindness to the hatred brewing among its immigrants.
N., note that I merely made a factual note -- with no prescription attached -- about immigrant communities in general (it's not even clear to me that the community in question is predominantly Muslim; the article offers some facts to support that inference but it's far from clear, and I did no original research). One that, frankly, is often lost on native/acclimated citizens.
ReplyDeleteAs for Europe's immigration issues and the same handful of books you keep recommending us, I can only question how "asleep" countries that entertain bans on veils and minarets can fairly be called. But that's quite apart from the mere factual observation that yeah, certain communities feel less comfortable talking to police.
Joe,
ReplyDeleteYour words: "Even when detention/deportation is not a concern, you're still talking about groups on the margins of society that may not feel they can rely on law enforcement."
As for recommending the same books, I miss your point since, in fact, I did not mention the noted books previously. And, even if I did, reading books is a way to learn things and not rely on specious analysis.
The issues overlooked in Europe include, for example, in previously homosexual friendly Amsterdam where Mr. Bawer reports that attacks on homosexuals are out of all control to the extent of making it a dangerous place to be homosexual. It means, as he notes, that information regarding such crime is suppressed. It means, not addressing a host of other issues that pertain to immigrants.
Rather than address actual problems that relate to the presence of immigrants, Europeans have instead, when they address these things at all, focused on stupid things such as clothing and undermining religious freedom. Which is to say, I stand by my assertions.
Making those arguments are all well and good but none of it invalidates my first post. Don't believe me? Survey some immigrants on their trust of police officers. Hell, survey some officers on how easy it is to investigate crime in immigrant neighborhoods.
ReplyDeletejoe,
ReplyDeleteSo, what are we to make of your "factual note"?
The real issue here is that these same immigrants who distrust the police are also overtly Antisemitic and hateful. That, not their distrust or fear of the police is, in today's world climate, a more pressing matter. Don't you think that is the case?
If you want to poo-poo the problems of marginalization of immigrant communities and its intersection with crime, tell it to (for example) battered women who feel they have no recourse at all within the legal system because of their place of birth.
ReplyDeleteOn the terms of the original post here, the "real issue" is a two-parter: 1) The violence itself, and 2) Disbelief over the actions of festival organizers. Anti-Semitism is plainly behind number 1. We all know that; it's stated outright. As for addressing number 2, then yeah, general crime-reporting troubles among immigrant populations enters the equation. And that's not stated outright, so it's worth mentioning. Am I saying it's right not to call the police? No. Just I assume you're not backing gay-bashing in Amsterdam just because you observe that it happens.
Joe,
ReplyDeleteConfronting violence is important. However, if you want to stop the violence here, you have to do something about what the noted immigrants think.
Okay, that's still pretty nonresponsive to what I first wrote. I think you're looking for an argument that I'm not offering up.
ReplyDeleteJoe,
ReplyDeleteI think that one problem here is that your initial "factual note" had implications which you may not have intended. Be that as it may, it does not sound like we have any real disagreement.
What do you expect when everybody is bending over backwards to be politically correct with a vile culture attacking it like a cancer? Yielding to them means that more and more deserters of their Arab dictatorial countries, where their life is miserable, will come to our shores, disrespect their host cultures, etc.
ReplyDeleteIf reading a post like that from someone who thinks "the cancer industry" is perpetrating a fraud on society (no doubt a conspiracy with the same crowd that won't show us the birth certificate) isn't the textbook definition of irony, it should be.
ReplyDelete